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Swedish Remington Calibres (Black Powder Cartridge)

by terryh @, Derbyshire, U.K., Friday, August 31, 2007, 21:38 (2646 days ago)

Hello Guys,

I'm new to this board and also to rolling block rifles.

I've just bought a rolling block rifle at auction. The auction calalogue listed it as a 12.7x45R Swedish sporting rifle. Now I've been trying to find out a bit about the rifle and can't find anything referring to 12.7x45R. Does it exist or might it be an error in the catalogue? This site refers to 12.17X44R, Buffalo Arms refers to 12.7x44R and the book "Cartridges of the World" refers to 12.11x44R. I'm confused. Can anyone help straighten me out on this?

The postings and articles on this site are really interesting and I would like to shoot the rifle, but want to make sure that I can load for it before going to the trouble of getting the necessary variation on my firearm certificate.

Terry

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Swedish Remington Calibres

by Øyvind F. ⌂ @, Bergen, Friday, August 31, 2007, 23:55 (2646 days ago) @ terryh

Hello Terry, and welcome to the board. :)

There is a lot of confusion regarding this calibre. Here is some background information about the cartridge:

To begin with the calibre was called 4''' (4 linjer or lines. One decimal line is an old Norwegian inch divided with ten. Duo decimal lines were divided with twelve, but that's another story.)

However, 4''' was nominal. In Norwegian lines the calibre was 3.88''' and in Sweden, which had a slightly different system, it was 4.1'''. In metric terms 3.88''' equals 12.17 mm. The rifling depth should be 13.11 mm. Soon after Norway and Sweden adopted the metric system. From 1879 the official name of the Remington rolling block rifle was 12 mm Remington, also a nominal term.

When the different cartridge designations appeared is unknown to me. Up to date I have seen the following:

  • 12.7x44
  • 12x44
  • 12.17x44
  • 12.7x42
  • 12x42
  • 12.17x42

44 and 42 are cartridge lengths in millimetres, and they are often followed by an R for rimfire. The reason why both 44 and 42 is used is this: In 1879 Norway adopted a new bullet, and as a result the point of impact changed. Because of the cost of altering the sights it was decided to increase the powder charge slightly to compensate for trajectory of the new heavier bullet. The increased powder charge in turn resulted in a 2 mm increase of the case length. It is a commom misconception that the new Norwegian round couldn't be fired in the Swedish rifles. Nothing was done to the chambers, and the Swedish and Norwegian rifles had similar chambers from the start.

I have never heard of a 12.7x45R. It is almost certainly a 12 mm Remington. A lot of sporting rifles were made for the 12 mm military calibre, both in Sweden and in Norway.

Do you find markings that can identify the maker? I would suggest that you slug the gun and perhaps take a chamber cast of it. However, I'm 98 % sure that you have a 12 mm Remington calibre rifle.

Some pictures of the gun would have been nice.

Good luck!

:ok:

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Swedish Remington Calibres

by terryh @, Derbyshire, U.K., Wednesday, September 05, 2007, 21:42 (2641 days ago) @ Øyvind F.

Reldor, Thanks for the link to the Remington site. :-)

Oyvind,Thanks for your prompt and most comprehensive response.

:-)

I am sorry not to have replied earlier, but I have had to wait for my wife to go out before I could take a chamber cast. She does not seem to accept that it is both safe & reasonable to melt metal on the kitchen cooker, although I feel that a few burn marks on the floor covering add character to a room.

I have slugged the barrel & it comes out between .513" & .515". The approximate diameter of the chamber cast is just under 14mm, with a rim dia of 16mm.

The buttplate, inside of the triggerguard, forend & stock are all stamped with the number 4649. The frame is stamped with a crowned C. The barrel carries the different number 3497 on the side flat, but this is very feint. The barrel also carries the number 1870 on the underside. There is also a crowned C on top of the barrel. with the letters GA to the left of the C & WN to the right.

I have also attached a picture as requested.

[image]

Thanks again,
Terry

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Swedish Remington Calibres

by Øyvind F. ⌂ @, Bergen, Wednesday, September 05, 2007, 22:49 (2641 days ago) @ terryh

According to your measurements you have a 12 mm Remington. :)

The crowned C indicates that the rifle is made up from discarded military parts from Carl Gustaf Stads Gevärsfaktori (gevärsfaktori = arms factory). As far as I can remember this factory only made about 300 civilian rifles. However, the different numbering on your rifle suggests that it is made up from military parts.
You can either use fireformed .348 Win. cases or buy brass directly from Bertram brass. Your rifle should be a good shooter.

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Swedish Remington Calibres

by tommy303 @, Arizona, Friday, September 07, 2007, 05:55 (2640 days ago) @ terryh

My wife long ago banished my ammunition laboratroy to the garage. I suppose she got somewhat tired of the character I was adding to her kitchen. She who must be obeyed spoke and he who must obey obliged.

thomas

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They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman

Swedish Remington Calibres

by reldor @, Moss, Saturday, September 01, 2007, 14:10 (2645 days ago) @ terryh

Swedish Remington Calibres

by Paul Tummers @, Berg en Terblijt, The Netherlands, Sunday, June 29, 2008, 21:38 (2343 days ago) @ terryh

Hi Terry and all the other people!!

I am new to this board as well, also new to black powder shooting, but I am a shooter/hunter/ reloader for over 30 years.

I always have been attracted by the rolling block system, and last week I had the opportunity to buy a Carl Gustav Rolling Block rifle in cal.12,7x44R.It only is missing the cleaning rod, but therefore in a very good overall condition with a mirror-shining barrel and no play on the block and hammer.
I do'nt have the rifle at home yet, will have to wait another 10 days or so to have it sent to me.

In the future I would like to shoot this rifle, of course I have to get the licence to posess the ammo for it first, but I am looking for the things I need to load/reload my ammo.

First, all those different bullet sizes confuse me a lot too, question is, because I would like to fire a 350 grain bullet in it, which brand, item number of the mould and bullet sizer/punch should I buy?

From the potential those rifles are capable of shooting very accurate,and I am a little bit of a perfectionist, and am not satisfied with 100mm groups at 100 meters.

I checked an American site(Buffalo arms) for the cases, and they offer original Norwegian brass for a fraction of the price of Bertram cases; who knows a source for those in Europe?

Regards,
Paul.

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target has been achieved, but think about how improvements can be made.
The best improvement is usually the one which simplifies the process

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